I think the NAHL should call the bluff of USA Hockey. If USA Hockey doesn't put the clamp on the EJHL, the NAHL should say "enough is enough" and cut ties with USA Hockey. Just my 2.8 Canadian cents worth. I happen to know that there are a number of NAHL governors who have had it with USA Hockey because of -- among other things -- what it has allowed the EJHL to get away with.
Just a quick comment to get things going; is it possible that although Harris might need a leash(according to the story), that it is the players themselves who aren't happy with the exposure or who they are being exposed to "west of the Mississippi"? If I'm on Fresno and I aspire to go to a DI east coast school and all I see are Denver, Wisconsin, and Minnesota jackets in the stands, maybe, I'm calling Mr. Harris asking if he could use another player. While I understand tampering is not defined by who initiates the contact, I think a little empathy for the player needs to be offered.
Maybe contracts should have "escapes" written in. After all, these players future's are at stake. In an older piece you once suggested that if you're [a player] not playing juniors with college intentions, then go to the school of your choice and play club or adult league.
I refer to:
Daily Dish: What is Junior Hockey? - Junior Hockey News
Published: Friday, 7 Oct 2011
Players should have a stated goal of development and desire to move onto college. Purely recreational players should join the local adult leagues......
These kids don't have much time. If college is at stake, who is USAH or any owner to hold the kid back.
Player's can get cut without ceremony and "left on the side of the road"; so, if a team can dump a player, why can't a player dump a team?
well put Randy...The AAU could be referred to as the "Hey, you!" as in "Hey you, USAH", fix this or "we'll trade you in for a nice, new, shiny sanctioning body."
dont mess with Ballard
Mantha has 3pts in 9 games. Hardly tearing it up in a "lesser" league as u like to put it. Toby Harris may be breaking some rules if what you say is true, but killing junior hockey is a stretch.
...in fact, the only "impact" any of Mo Mantha's players you mention as jumping ship (and not paying a dime)to the EJHL are having is your constant use of there names to make some point. It certainly aint on the scoresheet.
Harris is killing it... what do you think is going to happen when the NAHL sets up shop in New England next season?
They are going, with or without USA Hockey's blessing.
Let the bodies hit the floor.
Im curious to know what you think is going to happen because Im not sure what the NAHL setting up shop in NE has to do with anything. The only thing that tells me is that junior hockey in NE is going to get that much better. I think the NAHL is a great league and setting up shop in NE seems to be a smart thing to do. Am I wrong? How are bodies gonna hit the floor?
Good article Stephen, and forum reading...We too (ie the kid), like Im sure many of you, get calls in the spring and summer from Tier III, especially the east (but haven't during the playing season)...with the main selling point being # of commits, and what ill call that "pipeline" to eastern schools...
...dont know the exact rules, but the NAHL and USHL draft process Q & A pages (that also i think uses "protected" wording) used to say something like: "does this keep me from playing in another league?" and the answer was "no"....
...if this "raiding" is happening after the season has already started, or I would say, "made it through main camp and has reported to training camp of a NAHL or USHL team", seems to me the answer is simple, the Tier III team is in violation or should be...and also USAH may need to change the wording of some of the pages in its member leagues...
...and as far as the "off season"...say "Johny Skate" has been to a bunch of diff. tryouts and makes it to a bunch of diff. main camps, (all on his or his parents dime) then he is one of the 30 or 40 last standing invited to training camps and protected in and on one Tier I, Tier II, and Tier III team...then, looks like Johny and/or his parents have a choice to make: play Tier I, Tier II, or Tier III...("but hey Johny, watch that wording in Tier III paperwork that they can move you around From their A,B,C, team during the season"(LOL)...
...anyway, thats the way it should be...or something like that
Interesting Numbers from USA Hockey...
Number of players moved to Div I NCAA. Note numbers do not include USNTDP. These are the numbers that USA Hockey used to divide up shares of developmental money.
LEAGUE 2011 2010, 2009
USHL--183, 167, 129
NAHL--66, 75, 69
AJHL--12, 9, 16
EJHL--58, 62, 37
NA3HL--6, 4, 6
ESHL-- 0, 0, 3
Empire-- 20, 28, 5
Met-- 9, 3, 9
MnJHL--1, 1, 2
Norpac--0, 0, 4
Please explain this money further if you would:
how much money are we talking about?
How is it calculated?
Does it go to individual teams or leagues?
As my dad always said, Figure lie and liars figure. Haven't some of the USHL/NAHL players used in those numbers also played in the other leagues first? Who gets 'credit' for development? Was it the 2 years in the ESHL or the one in the NAHL? As pointed out before, aren't the EJHL numbers skewed because the player already has a college commitment prior to playing in the league? Why should the EJHL get money for something they have not done? Seems like a strange way to calculate payoffs, I mean, development money.
interesting numbers when you mention that the EJHL has 12 teams to the NAHLs 25.....
please. than take away all the college commitments the ushl has when players go there with college commitments already in tact..
Good point, so should the AAA teams get the dollars then, only seems fair, correct? Granted the Junior leagues are raising the player even further to get them ready for college, but why should they get all the money when the youth teams did all the heavy lifting? I know my association has not recieved one dollar from USA hockey and if you go back to learn to skate, dozens of players started in our association over the years and went on to play college hockey. Now was it our association or the local AAA team or HS team they ended up on? Chicken and the egg argument really.
How about this, LOWER THE FEE for player and coaches!!!! Why should I subsudize a league non of my kids will play in!!!!
Well Ralphy, when I follow the $, my brain sidetracks to the top "in" from Membership and dues: $19.6 million, then my eye sees $7.9 million in from Grants and $2.3 million in from Corp. sponserships
...then to the top three "out"...Services: $8.9 million...International programs: $5.3 million (and growing)...and N.T.D: $3.3 million (and growing)
...then to the bottom three "out"...Junior $390,000 (and shrinking) (should be because "ownership and paying fans", right?)
next "out" from bottom, is inline: $403,000 (and shrinking)...
then 3rd "out", from bottom, is Youth: $517,000 (and shrinking)
...note: the "growing" and "shrinking" is comparing 2010 to 2011 figures in the Annual report on USHL site
....or am i reading that all right?
....and i guess all from Mite up through AAA Midjet is still "Youth"....right?
...so if im reading and thinking about that $390000 for Juniors and $517000 for Youth right, (which is all less than a couple of avg working guys retirement)...and is what Youth and Junior are dividing up, looks like National Team Development is having a party!...or is any of that $ from services and NTD going to "Develope" Youth and Junior?...anybody out there know?... if big $ means big politics then "there you go"...I dont have either
...than take away all the college commitments the ushl has when players go there with college commitments already in tact...
can we do the same to the rest of the leagues as well?
I am beginning to wonder if a few of you have been hanging out with my wife... complain, complain, complain.
The NAHL coming to New England should have an immediate impact. All the aforementioned numbers, facts, and figures make for good arguments and discussion but let's not ignore some other not yet mentioned numbers: 23,000,000 unemployed nationally; 8% unemployment, and 20% of homes under water which include some high percentages in New England. A friend of mine told me that the NA had over 3800 players attend NA tryout camps this past summer; how many kids from New England spent thousands of dollars for the chance to save thousands of dollars to make an NAHL team? Some NAHL teams actually came to the east coast to "prey" on those smart enough not to spend thousands to travel to an open tryout for a team that had but 4 roster spots to fill.
Here are some "pie in the sky" numbers: An NAHL team sets up in New England and charges $15.00 a seat and draws 1000 per game; easy enough, 15 grand in gate revenue over 20 home games so you have $300,000 for the season. OK, so you'll say, "they'll never draw even 1000 per game" which, from what I have been told, might be a low number in some current NA cities.
Now schedule three open camps and charge $300 a head and watch 150-200 players show up(?); so on the high side, the team rakes in $60,000(on the high end) per camp/$180,00 for the three. That takes a little stress off the gate revenue. We won't factor the invite only camp.
I think the NAHL can survive in New England. Paying 12 grand for the EJ is starting to not make the projected 2013/14 household budgets for a lot of New England families.
Like the saying goes:
"It's the economy!, stupid".....See ya at tryouts.
So Stephen, my curiousity only is surpassed by my stupidity...so do Tier III Teams out east forgo the fee of players they want at the expense of all the other paying players on the team?...why would a player pass up Tier I and Tier II to pay to play Tier III?...I saw that Hockey (although back in 09')...from top to bottom no way like the NAHL or USHL...yes some good players and teams at Tier III Natls....are these the "stacked" teams of USHL and NAHL caliber players alleged not paying?....if so, seems like college Scouts and Coaches would/should favor players playing at a higher level all season long even if the player is already commited to them...
..."if wishes were horses, beggers would ride", but I wish the 4 (this year) NAHL div. winners going to the Robertson Cup, and the Top 4 teams from the USHL at the end and the top 4 Tier III teams coming out of Tier III Junior Natls would add a 12 team tournament or Showcase at the end of the season and finally settle this on the ice...now that would be a party!
...heck, after pre season exhibition games Ive kept my eye on the last couple of years between NA and Canada JR. A Tier II,...I havent heard more talk from Canada that "that" is "above" the NA!
Leave it all on the ice!
....heck, sorry, forgot the AAU...they send their top 4 teams from their Junior playoffs...now we have 16...a true USA National Junior Championships or Showcase......or something like that
Correction: Annual Reports on USAH site, not USHL site
Doug, you not sneaking that "oozy political economy sneak into" the NAHL in New England by me...i happen to agree with the NA up there if there is a min. 5 team div made up and 500 per game fan base per game, or deep pocket ownership, but thats up to the #s and research and meetings that, im sure, has already gone on or is going on or is going to go on...
...and its not cheap in my economy, but it doesnt cost "thousands of dollars" to travel and tryout for a NAHL or USHL team...if only 4 spots and the player doesnt get one, its still a ass kickin camp with 4 to 6 teams...
...2007 (remember, middle of the the worst recession since the great depresion) all economists said it could or would take twice as long to climb out of it as it took to fall in...
...you have your reasons, i have mine...
...one of mine is i lost half my 401k in mid 80s with a firm unregulated Wall Street...again in late 80s with a firm unregulated Wall Street...got it all back and more in the mid to late 90s with a firmly regulated wall street...then lost half of it in the 00s with almost no regulations on Wall Street...then got it back in 2011 and retired, yes with a firmly regulated Wall Street...
...another reason is the Machine Shop that i worked fell from, up and down a few, 20 employees to 10, thats half Dougster...and you guessed it...from apx 2000 to apx 2008...
...also i loved to train Apprentices during my 34 years there...guess what...state and fed Apprenticeship councils were no more and no more perks to the companies that had them so...gone (at least here)...cheaper tooling elsewhere for the Co. anyway...
...so again Dougmeister, you have your reasons and i have mine...i don't want to ramble about "those politics" on this site again...so lets agree to stick to posting with none of "those" political agendas
Christian, interesting that you choose to use the word "ramble" in referencing my comment.
Did it ever occur to you that some people on the east coast attended more than on NAHL camp? I guess if you travel via Greyhound and stay at Motel Six and smuggle food from the breakfast buffet to your room, you would indeed not spend thousand(s). I for one attended one (1) camp, and spent approximately $300 on gas as I drove from the east coast to Michigan, stayed 3 nights at a hotel and ate roughly 8 meals.(pretty close to $1000).
Friends I know went to as many as three (3)camps.
And, on another note, you sound like someone who feels let down by Obama so I know that politics may be a sore point for you.
Anyway, my thoughts are NOT subject to your approval and are not the product of mimmicking what others say. So yes, I will once again suggest that while I am sure the NAHL has been contemplating an east coast division for a while, I independently thought that it was plausible that the NA decided to invade the east coast at a time when so many are either fed up with or unable to continuing to pay to play. Having said that, I welcome the NAHL to the east coast.
So, Christianmeister, thank you for your resume, if I need you, I'll call.....
Next time I need advice on what to think however, I will reach out to you.
ok Dougster, here we go...
...i referenced, and meant, "rambleing" to myslf...
...your last sentence, 1st paragraph, used "thousands" (meaning more than 1)...used with:
...your last sentence, 1st paragraph, used "an" (meaning singular)...
...and no, im not let down but "ditto", politics may be a sore spot for you, that i have picked up on from your prevtous posts, and you and i are obviously opposite (but maybe your being sarcastic now?)...
...and i apologise if i misinterpreted your 2nd sentence of your 1st paragraph, but i read into it that you were subliminaly trying to sway the reader in "those" poitics, so i felt compelled to give an opposite...maybe, only maybe, "my bad"...
...and the "buzz" words you ended with: "its the economy, stupeid" always has bugged me, whether it comes from either the "left" or the "right"...i just think its offensive, period...
...and obviousley your thoughts are not subject to my approval, as is MY reaction to YOUR words are NOT subject to YOUR approval...
...and i have no idea what your "mimmicking" reference refers too?, that "goes by me"...
...and no its not a resume, don't call, not applying and wouldnt...
...and Doug, im here anytime you need advice on what to think
......but your turn now, gotta sharpen some skates early
Congratulations, Christian, you stumped me; I'm without words. After I read your last post, albeit four (4) times, I realized, for the purpose of not turning another "dish story" into "All About Christian", I will just concede that you're right. my ideas, political beliefs, included have no place on this site.
However just to read what your thoughts are is reason enough for me to keep coming back for more.
Anyway moving on; does anyone here think that the NAHL may just be coming for the reason I suggested; economic (not political, Christian)conditions suggest that New Englanders will line up for days for a chance to avoid another year of hockey tuition.
See Christian, no mention of Obama of that VP of his, Joe "Burden".
Doug!...you got me smiling and laughing again!...but to get to my 2 cents worth of answer to your question:
yes, i would think the expansion of the NAHL (and have to say im no "insider", i heard of it on this site) to New England is economic for both directions...for the ownership and league of course, and the communities up there, and all the words like expansion, bigger "footprint" that come to mind...
...but i think the driving force behind all and any of those words is the love of hockey and the kids that play it...
...oh, im sure that some, shall we say "jaded"? people (like the Stirlings, from what we,ve read about) that only care about the $ and their own selfs "slip through the door" or try...but even they may have started with some sort of good (all be it "warped") intentions...Stephen and all, any comment on that? (if you reading all this stuff)
No one doubts/questions the kids love of the game....If only USAH loved the kids the same.
Say what you want about Harris, but his player's reach their goals.
Maybe Harris realizes that USAH looks the other way and until something is done will continue to do what he does.
How about this for a "dish" headline:
Daily Dish: USAH is Killing US Junior Hockey - Junior Hockey News
Hey Christian, in deference to you, I omitted the end of that last comment. I omitted after "Daily Dish: USAH is Killing US Junior Hockey - Junior Hockey News" the following:
Or is that not politically correct?
im almost left speechless...and that (as you know) is hard to do...but anyway, to clarify and/or add to my last ramble, my opinion is USAH loves the game and kids as all the "factions" do, primarily....(no problem, hard to figure out what my brain is telling two of my fingers to type)...
...thinking of the past couple of weeks of reading and posting...i remember the good stuff (the Hockey), and eastern Tier III "weird stuff", (and did read some eastern Tier III good stuff (the Hockey),...but the news worthy weird stuff and reaction to it seems to come from eastern Tier III....."weird" to me means: strange, foreign, surprised, "not used to to", "doesn't seem as the others"...oh,oh,oh "not uniform"...i like that meaning for tonight
Tonights "ramble": i want to correct my previous error: i refered to the "Stirlings"...should have been the "Wrights"...
..Stephen, i have been going back to Daily Dishs 1 by 1 (before a couple of weeks ago when i joined) (yes, sometimes my brain really is behind!)...
...this "catch up" reading im doing of your Daily Dish and the comments that follow, does, at the least, reiterate for me what the last 2 weeks has shown about some Tier III teams and/or leagues in the east (i have to watch myself not to lump all these teams and leagues together as "watch out for them" teams)...
...but i do have some damage control to do with a couple of friends (families with upcoming younger players) that i also had started "jumping on the bandwagon" of "oh yea, their that Tier III east thing and i hear thats good stuff out there etc. etc...
...so now, when/if these friends (their kids) have a good showing at showcases back here next spring/summer and get pulled to the side, i will go back to saying "be carefull, do your homework"...(especially when it may lead to $10,000+ "contracts" to be signed)
...so (as you have been reporting), they better take care of some of that "weird" stuff or the "good" perception of the east Tier III will end up down the drain...and that can't be good for the bottom line
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